Oct 28, 2020

In today's episode Dan and Lee look at references of AI in popular culture and go head to head with their battle of the best AI bots.  From Robocop to HAL we have all been influenced by popular culture and its take on technology and ethics.  

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast
Series: 3
Episode: 12

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

Hey, how are you?
Hey Dan, I'm good. I'm good. Good to be back on the on the airwaves again, huh?
Absolutely. Totally. It's been a great uh great week and lots going on in the news. Have you seen anything recently yourself uh uh that's jumped out to Oh,
look, I have and I was thinking, Dan, you know, I've been enjoying doing these podcasts with you, but I think, you know, there's uh maybe it'd be interesting if we start to talk a bit about what's going on because there is so much going on around AI at the moment. I mean, you know, in the even the interviews we had last week with so many amazing people doing cool stuff. So, I thought I'd go and do a bit of searching and as we said last week, we're going to talk about AI and popular culture this week. So, I thought I'd go and find out a bit about what's going on in popular culture.
So, I'll start with a I'll start with a couple of things, Ken. I'll start with the uh the serious one, should we say. Um it was not that recently. I think it was back in June, but I discovered this um uh it's a Dutch guy, a Dutch YouTuber, we'll put the link in the notes. Um who's been using AI using a an AI framework called gain depth aware video frame interpolation.
Right. Okay.
And he's been take like Yeah. Like who I mean these this everywhere these things are popping up. Yeah. But he's been using this this construct and it's an open source framework and basically what it does is you train train the model with ex with existing high quality footage of anything and it uses and it basically analyzes the difference between each frame of of a footage you give it and it sort of interpolates what data would be there if the data was shot in higher quality higher frame rate imagery. So right he's taken the the NASA moon landing data all of them you know so everything back from sort of you know Apollo 11 all the way through to Apollo 17 and he's just up upscaled it basically to HD uh fully frame video. It looks like watching 60 frames per in fact it is. It's if you go look at the the website 60 frames per second 4K video of moonlandings from you know 50 years ago. It's incredible stuff to watch. So
really interesting way that AI obviously not an AI in culture but just an amazing way that AI is being used. Are you a big space fan?
Yeah absolutely absolutely from Star Wars onwards. But yeah it's it's fascinating isn't it the way the some of the moves of technology and the kind of innov that we've created have resulted from some of that exploration elements and some of the things the government have done.
Insane creating like I mean you think this is content from so long ago and it now looks like movies that were made yesterday.
It's almost like forensics right you know you know you know if you watch some of the movies and some of the documentaries on discovery and things like that where they kind of find a murderer like 30 years later 50 years later because they've the the advances in forensic science has moved you know looking at some of the video footage
um and looking at you know when you when they do the recoloring and things of video as well that's really interesting and obviously some of that
I find that I find that stuff amazing
it is isn't it and some of the stuff we use generally the some of the stuff we use in schools like using Paint 3D to artificially uh fill in backgrounds and you know Adobe been doing that for a while as well in movies and removing say a running horse from a middle of a beach scene or whatever it might be it's fantastic use of AI
it's it's like it's it's yeah just the the what you can create I We talked about this in our one before about AI in um is it creative you know but you can create these amazing things but um but on the on the topic of movies and and then we'll get into the meat of it um
you know so obviously co times really impacting the movie theater industry but I was pleased to go look I was kind of thinking okay what's coming up in the AI movie uh sphere and the first one that stood out because of the title the bios the basic input output system for those of you that been playing with computers for a while there's a movie called BIOS coming out Tom Hanks which is always a winner you know Tom Hanks never kind of fails in the movie world about a a post-apocalyptic Earth where a robot that's built to protect presumably Tom Hanks is the protagonist.
Um built to create the the life of his dog and it's all about kind of learning life and love and friendship and all these things about what it mean but it's a it's an AI robot that's being taught about what it means to be human. Um so that's really sounds uplifting. That sounds fun. That sounds kind of
kind of kind of good.
And then on the flip side of it, so that's due to there's always a flip side. I can see what's coming up here.
Yeah.
On the flip side of it, there's a there's a movie called which is actually a movie of a book. Um, but there's a movie coming up called uh and I kid you not, Robo Apocalypse.
No, no.
Unsurprisingly, it's got Michael Ba's name attached to it, but it's also a Steven Spielberg movie. Okay.
Um, but it's actually it's this book written by a guy called Daniel Wilson from uh early 20 2011 2010.
Um, actually sounds quite interesting, but if you read it, so it's a a journey of the human resistance and survival against a powerful new artificial intelligence initiating a global synchronization of uprising of the robots.
Wow.
What does it sound like to you? Kind of sounds like Terminator to me.
I know. Totally. And and I think that's it, isn't it? People are bringing these things together and the storytellers are are really trying to drive some of these some of the things we're thinking about the future and adding a bit of a new dimension to these. I think the Black Mirror episodes did quite a lot around that which which are fantastic where they really push things to the limit. So, when we look at uh popular culture and generally, you know, we've seen a lot about robots and AI in in the film industry. I suppose you know going back to when C3PO, you know, human cyborg relations and and the language translation the the you you look at in there, you know, it's 1977 when uh you know, that was all kind of put into film and
don't you call me a mindless philosopher, you overweight glob of Greece. Now come on before somebody sees you.
Really interesting in the fact that you know we get that language translation now. across say Microsoft products and Google products and and a lot of the products are using consumer land. So you know the things these things are coming into um real culture from popular culture in some some cases and then from TV shows from lost in space to some of the cartoons like Futurama and I suppose in the 80s when we were growing up there was like a boom for these movies wasn't it from Terminator to war games you know it was all there and lots of the future thinking like Back to the Future 2 I think that was a really popular one when when I was at school and things. And I suppose looking at some of those uh you know in in in kind of a little bit of uh detail and looking back on them with the kids, you kind of see lots of connections to the present day and also to the future and where people thought we were going and where we actually landed. Um it was really really interesting. Right.
Yeah. Like well I mean movies have always been or popular culture I guess has always been a reflection of of the I guess the the times that they're made in and you know You talk about like the 80s when when certainly when I was an influ an easily influenced uh teenager, you know, yeah, the movies were all about the kind of the negative perspective of it, you know, the the end of the world stuff and then but you look back to the 50s and it was almost kind of, you know, positive future, think about what amazing things we could do, although there's a few, you know, day the earth stood still and that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
But um but no, it's it's interesting and it kind of got me thinking Dan about um like, you know, we think about AI and public culture, but and we And and I don't know about you, fam, but when I went researching for this episode, you there was thousands of things I could have said and you know, you start uncover all these amazing stories. You forget about AI in in the world, but they're kind of, you know, how do we think about them in these uh sort of broad forms or broad broad spectrums of types of AI if you like.
Um
so,
so I kind of got thinking about that
when you when you looked into the research of that because I I um fudged the terminology when I was even in doing that description at the beginning, you know, because we talk about robots which are different to AI or some robots have AI in them, you know, and there's there so, you know, sort of variety of uses of AI with within those stories that are told. So, when you were doing your research there,
um, I know we were talking beforehand here, but there were there were four or five different types of AI that that jump up in popular culture quite a lot, right?
Yeah. Look, you're right. I mean, robots, great example, because I mean, robots don't necessarily mean AI. But most often robots are kind of defined as designed as being these artificial intelligent devices. So look, the way it kind of seems to break apart and you know this is certainly um not the be all and end all but it's one way to think about it is you've kind of got these four areas of AI um future if you like or AI culture which is the so AI dominant worlds. So AI worlds where humans are no longer the most important things on the planet and robots have usurped the control taken over control from us and we and humans become either submiss or you submissive or we're hiding or we just don't exist anymore. Um you know lots of good examples of this is that kind of very dystopian future if you like.
Yes. Matrix, you know, Matrix being a great example of that kind of world. Um
so you got where so the AI lives there and then then you got the other one which is human dominant worlds where we still have AI but man or man or mankind I should say man and woman has for one reason or another has remained in control and it's usually not the explore. It's more about kind of this um how do we create a an environment where we both live in in harmony but often the humans being more dominant. So the robots become our our servants our our agents of of activity. Um you know they're almost submissive to us.
Uh Azimoff's you know the Iroot series which is kind of the very core of the the laws of robotics where a robot will behave according to our laws is the pinnacle of that idea of a human dominated AI future. Yeah.
Um So that's kind of those very broad. Yeah, it makes kind of sense in the worlds themselves, right? This is actually the way
two different types of worlds. Yes.
Yeah. Got you.
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So it's either you essentially it's good or bad if you like if you put it that way.
Yeah.
But then you've got the types of AI. So then you've got the AI that is uh let's call it sentient AI where it's self-aware. Uh it has a human level of intelligence. What we might call today a you know an a general AI level of intelligence where it can interpret everything around the world and make its own decisions. And it doesn't have to be bad or it doesn't have to be good. I mean, there's, you know, sentient AI would be say Night Rider. If you remember Kit from Night Rider is a sentient AI, you know, it was it was its own person, but it was good. Yes.
Um,
and then the flip side, if you're a if you're a computer gamer like myself, um, and you remember the Portal series of games from from Valve, GLaDOS is the protagonist in that game, and she and she is evil and malicious and malign, um, but both self-aware,
both sentient in that sense. Yes. Um,
but then when you think about non-scentient. This is a little harder because this is kind of a I mean almost kind of a dichotomy because by definition AI generally means you know sort of sentient when we think about these futuristic robotic you know AI existences but this is that non-scentient think about a thing that doesn't have a emotion doesn't have a a sense of being it's not a physical thing it's more of a um an environment if you like almost so best the best example I could come up with was like on the enterprise on the USS Enterprise um you know the the ship's computer, you know, and I when they talk to the ship's computer, they talk to it, but it's not really there. They just yell out into the ether and it responds. Um and it's an answering machine, but a very intelligent, hyper intelligent answering machine.
Yes.
Um and that's kind of a nonsense. It's not an AI you can see and feel and touch, but it's an AI,
but it's inside the system.
Yeah. So that's right. Yeah. No, I love that. And it makes it it does make kind of sense and it allows you to I'm thinking about the the ones now that I've thought about for this episode and seeing where do they fit in? Are they what type of worlds are they in and then are they sentient or non-scentient AI? Really really interesting and coming up with those examples as we go through this episode I suppose and see where they can connect in um would be good. So when we looking at our favorite we we came up with our a few of our favorite AI right almost like top trumps here. So should we get into that?
Yes.
The one that always fascinates me and and I watched it again on the on the weekend in in preparation for this is obviously 2001 Space Odyssey and the HAL computer in that.
Yep.
And it's not just about actual AI itself, but the way the drama that's created because this is there's a scene in I don't know if you remember where um one of the guys are in in in like a a particular pod and they they want to open the pod bay doors and he's asking Hal to open up bay doors and it's like you could get a clip on YouTube but there's like five minutes and it is intense and you can almost you can almost hear
the HAL AI
thinking you you know cuz he's asking a question there's no response coming back and you can almost imagine the algorithms going through the the computer's mind going should I let this guy in or shouldn't I you know it's like and then eventually you know the guy comes back you know it really does bring that drama into the fact that you know the the AI's thinking and and you know it's like a evil AI but you also think well it's doing the right thing and the rules are this programmed to do and you know it's very very interesting what what do you what are your thoughts on
No I I agree look I I've I'm I've watched the movie and I'll be honest with you I've seen the movie I'm not as enamored with it I know many sci-fi you know nerds would be around it being kind of that pinnacle I get the fact that it's from 1968 and you got to put it in the context of at that time
you know that was really transformative movie making but I think the thing that out for me is exactly what you just said in that scene where it's, you know, hey, Hal open the B pod bay doors and you get that pause and it's the voice when when Hal comes back and says, I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that.
Exactly. It's almost it's almost um the way that it's said, it's it's almost um very humanlike. And I think what I what I really think that um you know, there was the interesting thing that Stanley Kubri did was the sound design. Those pauses you talk about where the computer's thinking and the the way it says doesn't sound robotic. It sounds like someone It sounds like a a mad man or a mad person. Yeah. Just going, "Yeah, menacing. I'm sorry. I can't do that." Menacing. That's exactly the word. Exactly the word.
Very very interesting. And I think I think that really, you know, pushed the boundaries. I think I'm in the same boat as you. I know that is like hailed as one of the the classics. You know, there's a lot of for lots of different reasons in film making, I suppose, but the AI element to that really jumped out at me. And um yeah, that was definitely one of my uh one of my top four. How about yourself? What was the one that jumped out at you?
Well, before we jump out of mine, I got to ask you a question. I want to I I've always Do you know Do you know where the HAL name came from?
Um it's a it's a heristic programmed life form, wasn't it?
Uh well, that's maybe this is one of those pop culture stories. I've always been believed and been led to believe that it was essentially the letters IBM. If you think about this, in 1968, IBM was the dominant computer manufacturer, was the only computer manufacturer.
I can see where you're going with it. Yes, this is an H IBM. It's IBM one character move shift one. Yeah, absolutely.
I'm better than IBM. I don't know if that's actually true, but that's always what I've I've been led to believe. So,
yeah, that's good. Fantastic. So, how about yours? What was your what was one of your top four?
My my my top one. I don't look Yeah, I don't know if they were they're not if they're in top series, but the first one I came across and I've loved this movie since I was a little kid. Um it's the 19 1956 movie Forbidden Planet.
So, if you've ever seen the movie, um uh it was essentially a um a rethink or a restructure of the William Shakespeare story, The Tempest. Yes.
Um you know, so you've got uh Dr. MorbiiUS is playing Prospero and you've got Robbie the robot is essentially Ariel, who was a spirit in Prospero in uh the the play. Robbie the robot from the Forbidden Planet. If anyone had seen the picture, you'd see it immediately and go, "Oh my god, I know that robot." Because it is such a uniquely designed, but everybody knows the picture. I know. Do you know it yourself?
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. It's fantastic.
It's um
it's fantastic. Look, and obviously it's a product of its time. You see it in that it's in that peak 1956 uh era of of sort of space. I mean, pre the moon landing, pre-space in any way. But here we are going off to a distant planet with a human on it that's been studying these people from the planet and got all their intelligence and embibed it into this robot called Robin the robot. So, it's kind of artificial. because it's non-human intelligence. Um, I I just love the idea of it. I love the thing that it is as a purpose of the point of its time. But you know what really kind of for me is the big thing here is you think about this 1956, one of a hundred movies that were released in the 50s around a around space and you know kind of the adventure of space.
Yeah.
Robbie the robot today
uh is still used in popular culture up until I think even now in the 20 2014 the Bing Bang Theory had it on an episode of theirs. It when I looked at on the internet there's like a hundred references where Robbie the robot is almost now a cultural icon in of itself
as an example of that era of the sort of the nuclear era of the 50s
you see toys and like I I saw it on a sandwich box the other day you know it's it's like some it's like yeah it's it's almost like this this reference robot isn't it
it's it is the archetype robot of what we think about and it's what I think about you know it's just incredible for me so that for me is my number one AI. So,
but there's interesting bit of trivia there. You know, I'm I'm looking at some of our notes across these and like Hollywood actually misleading that character in in the posters being make making Robbie actually terri you know, an adversarial creature um you know and the fear around robotics and automating and things like that.
It's funny fact you know and obviously our listeners won't be able to see this um but here you'll see I've got my my team's background.
Yeah. Um, Robbie the robot from Forbidden Planet. You can see it there. Um, but yeah, it was in the movies. It was he was positioned as being this kind of evil robot on the pictures taking away the damsel in distress or attacking the humans
because that's what people wanted to see, you know, at the time. People wanted to see that. But of course, when you see the movie, he's actually a gentle giant in many ways. You know, he's the hero of the story in some ways.
Yeah,
that is correct, sir. For your convenience, I am monitored to respond to the name Robbie. Um, anyway, I love it. I could watch that movie over and over again despite its age. Love it.
Totally. Yeah. And I think people hopefully there's people listening who might might get spurred on by some of these. I think I'll I'll rewatch that.
Yeah. You know, this the second one that I'm going to draw attention to and it's not it's not really, you know, one of these things that capture my heart or anything, but I'm I'm going to mention it because it's it's blackbox and white box, I suppose. AI is Robocop in 1987. That was you know, when that first came out, um, it was it was really interesting. You know, the the policeman died, you know, there was there was a lot of series around this. It started with Night Rider didn't it as well and and then we had Robocop and there was some guy on a bike as well where the the policeman died and and this was a $6 million man as well where they come back and they better. But the twist on Robocop was that he'd got programmed, I think it was serve the public trust, protecting the innocent and upholding the law and then there was a directive which was kind of hidden and classified a bit of blackbox AI in there
or blackbox rule wouldn't allow him to kind of attack certain people and all this kind of stuff. So, it was that that interesting uh element of utilizing robotics to kind of control society, but then we didn't really know what the rules were until about 3/4 way into the movie um because there was one classified objective that kept appearing. So, it really started to inject that kind of hesitation and society of should we trust even a robot which is supposed to be good and you know there was a lot of you know calamity in the movie as well where some of the robots are just breaking down and shook it out which is interesting
I seem to remember it's pretty pretty gruesome as well as I recall
yeah yeah that's right but it was really interesting the way that you could actually they made the rules specific and that was the the entire plot line around that kind of element of the rules with inside the AI or with inside the robot and whether the robot could actually override those rules. It was really interesting way they did it.
Yeah. Because Yeah. It's a great Peter Weller. Yeah. Great movie. Long time ago now. God 1980s sometime I guess, wasn't it? Um
87. Yeah.
87. Yeah. But and it's interesting like the idea of the rules like you say that kind of um Isaac Azimoff model of create the rules. But I think apart from it's actually a really dark movie and if you kind of you know think about it you know the journey Peter Weller the Robocops journey is is really a journey to destruction. You know, he ends up obviously getting um you know, killed and then brought back to life as a robot and then has to fight with the reality of his rules has been programmed versus humanity inside of him that fights back against it. So, it's kind of dark, but you know, it's the thing about it was a rethinking of the Isaac Azimoff idea that you can create rules to make the robot safe, but what if you're the person that makes the rules and you decide to put in an extra rule as they absolutely
to say, but also keep me safer. Um And that was I think the the last rule was basically you can't harm uh this guy or an employee of this Cyberdine whatever the company was called. I think the name OCP or something else is
but it's it's yeah OCP. Yes, you're right. But it's it's a good example. I mean it's interesting. It's AI but it's human AI in some ways as well. Um
thank you for your cooperation. Good night.
Well, and we'll well we'll come back to Robocop in some ways here because my second one um you can I like my 80s sci-fi. Uh, Skynet, of course, Skynet, the great Skynet of the of the Terminator series. Now, Skynet's been on this really interesting journey because, you know, I'm a big fan of the Terminator. I'm I'm kind of a bit of a fan personally of post-apocalyptic futures. It's not like I want everything to end. I just find it a fascinating uh study, if you like.
I need to know how Skynet gets built, who's responsible.
But so, Skynet fictional art artificial neural network based on sort of a group intelligence of these robots that we humans have essentially built in some way. You know, we build and create and we bring about our own uh collapse through the def through the build of Skynet. But again, one of these things that we all know about Skynet and we hear about it. In fact, to this day, I looked it up after before this Skynet is actually recognized as a proper noun. It is a word to describe a thing that has grown beyond its original vision and become evil or malicious in its intent. Um people might say you know you computer if you keep doing that you're it's going to turn Skynet on you. It's like it will turn rogue on you.
Um but what was interesting so you so Skynet you know from 1984 so back in that 80s again you know was it was built around built by a company Cyberdine Systems which again has kind of become one of those synonyms for an evil company. Um and it was built around the idea that it was just a revolutionary artificial intelligence. It would kind of had no if you think back to the first movie there was no real story to it apart from the obvious uh paradox of uh a robot coming back from the future to kill its the its maker is kind of a paradox as most AI and time time travel stories will be. But then as time changed and my personal favorites the 2003 release Terminator 3 because in Terminator 3 then they kind of started to build some story around what Skynet was and they were using what was the the zeitgeist at the time which was computer viruses and computer networking and connections and it was this idea that there was a sort of a a virus being leaked around the machines and Skynet was needed to be built to eliminate the virus, but it became self-aware and understood and recognized its own potential and then shuts down the computers. And the only reason I love it so much is because there's this moment in the movie right at the end where they're locked in a bunker
and they're trying to shut down the Skynet and it's on a Commodore 64 with a Commodore pet in the corner and it's obviously set in the past, but it's I think it's 97 when it's supposed to happen. It's obviously not relevant then even those kinds of computers. It's and and they're at this moment and you can kind of have this moment where they just go, "Okay, that's we can't stop it. It's about to go live and Skynet happened." And it was kind of I don't know. It's one of those kind of moments where you go, "It is
that's kind of possible. That's real but not real because it's a madeup story."
Yeah.
But yeah, I just I love that idea of Skynet.
I remember when I used to teach computer science and you looking at the internet and the way IP addresses work and the fact that when it was originally, you know, Darpanet and all that kind of stuff with with defense in in the and the fact that you couldn't you could eliminate a node, you know, Russia could essentially,
you know, put put a bomb down in one particular node and the network would continue on. It was almost like the the uh the kind of story of the internet being just taken to that degree further where you can't really kill something that you've created, right?
My CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer, but Skynet presets the switch to read only when we send alone.
Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly. And so I think it's the way that it kind of adapted to that
what was the current thinking. Now the the later movies I think have become a bit average. I've not really enjoyed them as much, but I think there's a point where it really tried to it really just sort of intersected with what's real at that point.
Yeah.
And I think then it
but to your Robocop thing, I I went looking and I didn't realize this, but Frank Miller, who's a well well-renowned writer in, you know, in this in this genre,
he wrote a crossover book called with with uh called Robocop versus the Terminator.
Okay.
And it suggested this idea that Skynet and the Terminators were all possible because of the work that went into building Robocop. So essentially Robocop was the first iteration of the Terminator, first iteration Skynet.
So there you go. You see there's a connect together.
That's you learn something every day. Hey,
you do. Yeah. And of course, let's not worry about the fact that the Skynet was actually then adopted by the uh the US National Security Agency as is a name of a a service that they used to do um kind of you know global uh monitoring and analysis of of communications and you know we don't want to go too far down that part but of course
but you know Skynet in that sense has become something almost real
yeah no absolutely and and the stuff that Elon Musk is doing at the minute with the with the chain of satellites for internet connectivity people are kind of putting correlations and
uh to that as well but
yes it's an interesting so my my um my my third one I suppose would be a little bit of pop culture reference coming back out to the 80s I suppose and and picking up Cortana around the Halo series. You know, I I loved the interaction with Cortana, supporting you through the game and the Halo series and having that
that kind of almost um uh household name for gamers, you know, knowing Cortana as a as a person in the game. And then the thing that was interesting for me obviously as a Microsoft person was the way we brought Cortana into Windows 10 and inside some of our Azure platform as well. So it takes up it for me the reason is is I suppose more of a personal one in terms of the fact that I'm using Cortana in my work and in some aspects of AI you know we still got Cortana intelligence services and whatnot in the back end you know some so some Cortana um uh kind of story lines and and that that actual um not the story lines themselves but that actual um name permeates into of the products that we're using every day. So I really like the way that that crossover has come from games into things I'm using every day. Um so I really love that. Uh and that's why that kind of jumps out for me. It's not really I suppose a you know in terms of it is an AI with inside Windows 10 and it's it's really powerful. But I just love the way that that's connected in because it does it kind of for me um just connects with that pop culture reference of my gaming background I suppose.
So let me ask you a question. because there's sort of two instantations of Cortana. There is Cortana in the games and then there's Cortana that we use as as a subsystem in our thing. I mean, obviously I'm assuming this is Cortana, the gaming, the the female protagonist in the game.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. But but but it like the the fact that it kind of, you know, the the voice is similar, you know, it's it's just you feel as if you're interacting with something in your day-to-day work that's kind of connected to the game in some way and it just just got a that kind of romanticism for me, I suppose, of AI that kind of I know and I kind of sort of trust and is supported and now it's supporting me to check if my calendar's awake, you know. Yeah, it's really No, it is. And it's a good one. And actually, it's become, you know, I think it has almost grown bigger than the game itself in some ways in that Cortana, I would argue, is possibly now in the in as a pop culture reference in of itself. You know, it's not just a Halo reference. If Osana is almost certainly I know in the halls of Microsoft it's a synonym for AI you know we think about it in that way
um but in the game no I'd agree with you I mean I played the early games of Halo and I remember when and you sort of see the evolution of that Cortana and I think the thing that's interesting is again
if you look back Cortana started out as almost a voice in your head kind of AI it was a you know you'd refer to she would answer questions or she'd guide you through the story almost in the early movies Whereas I think in the later games, certainly from what I've seen, she's almost become key to the story and a physical character. You know, you see her in a physical sense. Um, so it's a great example and and and true AI. I mean, in the sense that she is an AI character in the game, but probably also now written and built
using AI to become a thing that we use in our products today.
Totally. And I love that connection.
I imitating life.
Yeah, I love that connection. Totally. is a good that is a good one. I don't you should go look at the backstory slightly because it's a little bit darker actually that she's I think she was constructed from or she's built out of the the the brain of some scientist who was a major player in the Halo universe franchise. So yeah, if you want to go deep deep into it's probably dark, but
maybe not then. Yeah, let's keep it nice and fluffy and we like it.
Absolutely. So what's your next one?
Cool. So my next one is I took a bit of a liberty. I'll be honest with you. Um I basically said, you know what, I'm I'm a big Douglas Adams fan always have been loved his uh book
and and we think at the hitchhiker's guide to galaxy if we look across that there's a range of artificial intelligence beings
and I mean obviously the one that everyone knows and thinks about is Marvin the paranoid android um you know as kind of the core one but before Marvin or in fact the story of Marvin starts with this company called the Sirius Sirius Cybergus Corporation if you've ever seen the the TV shows or the movies or or even the books you know, they they're these uh kind of um artificially intelligent objects, you know, doors and lifts and uh drinks machines. Um but this company happens to be crap at making them. So, it kind of makes really bad ones that uh aren't very good and have faulty AI.
And that's the story behind Iron Marvin is that, you know, he was a a robot that was built badly
and now has this sort of faulty AI in him, which is why he's so paranoid and miserable and everything's terrible. got these terrible pain in all the diads down his left side. I think it's the the line. But there's some amazing ideas, you know, and I think if you kind of largely think about it, you Douglas Adams
really he's a fantastic writer, as I'm sure you'd agree, and and just really understood how to bring
a sense of kind of um wit and uh sort of um humor, but but irreverent humor to these uh futuristic things. So Marvin, just this, you know, paranoid android that was capable of solving all of the problems in mankind's life and could you know answer any question you asked it but couldn't deal with this pain in its back as a robot you know a very human condition
such a clever idea um so yes so all that and then of course deep thought you know the the machine that
ultimately tried to answer the life the question for life universe and everything
with with 42 which didn't make any sense so let's go find the question
and then led led to the creation of earth which became the great computer that was going to work out what is the real question I mean I think you know aside from the I just Douglas's way of thinking about this really big a big idea
and then bottling it up into this kind of light-hearted funny but also deeply kind of thought through if you think about it narrative. So yeah, I guess Marvin
phenomenal
it is. Yeah, I guess but Marvin Marvin the paranoid android is for me um it's
it's just a wonderful wonderful creation.
Yeah. No, absolutely. The entire the entire series around Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is just phenomenal. He was I I didn't say way way ahead of his time, but when you look at some of those Black Mirror episodes and the way that people look at technology and then sit back and try to make stories around that where they can go wrong and the way he added wit to that was phenomenal. Really was. And I think a lot of these Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, and sometimes that a lot of the movies like the ones you said are coming up and the ones we've got seen recently when they try to be serious um you know, they you know, it often turns sinister, whereas when people actually try to be a bit light-hearted with it, it can really explain some hard concepts um really well and and it's like check this Guide to the Galaxy is just phenomenal. Yeah, 100%.
It's just beautiful, Rod. Yeah, yes.
Yeah, there are there are some bad ones though, aren't there? There are some there's some wful uses of AI and robotics. The one the one I I'll pick up as as one of the worst, you know, this is a awful film really, but but also the reason I picked this one, there's so many to pick from, but Um the reason why I picked this one is because of the uncanny valley. Um just to just to emphasize that point where um humans and the robotic uh view view themselves, you know, it happens a lot in animation. There's a there's you talked about Tom Hanks earlier on. There's a on the Polar Express, the Christmas movie my kids watch. There's a really odd uncanny valley animation of um
of Tom Hanks where he's kind of strange. And this one is bsentennial. man with Robin Williams where when where it's essentially about the robot that wants to become human but the robot they've they've made to look like um Robin Williams and it just it just doesn't work and and it just lands in that uncanny valley you don't you can't believe it's a robot you can't believe it's Robin Williams and you know it just it just really it just doesn't work you know and and you know the apart from the plot and things of that movie some people might like it it's worth looking at I suppose to look at the way the uncanny valley can sit, but it really is, you know, it puts that robot uh AI element in, you know, it sits in between the human uh landscape and robotic landscape and doesn't really work.
Yeah, it's a it's a good one. And you're right about the Polar Express. Of course, my kids used to watch that when they were younger. And
you're right, you've got that Tom Hanks and it's almost real but not and and it's the same with Bsentennial Man. And I wonder, do you think that that's because um you know the great Robin Williams was just seen to you as a comedic value, you know, Mrs. Doubtfire and all that kind of stuff. Was it hard to see him perhaps as a futuristic robot, empathetic futuristic robot, or do you think
Yeah, I think I think that's right. It's very hard to see and and I think this is one of the things, isn't it? And I think we talked about in the earlier episodes when we are creating AI, you know, I talked about with Cortana, I like that Cortana crossing over into my work, but then it it didn't seem to impede. But then some of these when you do look at some of the AI, there's There seems to be two elements. Some which are really lifelike and connected in and then some which look so ridiculously like robots that they are totally removed from any tasks you you want to do. And you look at if you if you go into Google and type worst AI or worst robots, there's some really bad ones out there that look horrendous. And then there are some which look,
you know, really fantastical. But then there's some, like you said right at the beginning, that are that are sentient and you don't see them and they blend into the background. It's really interesting.
Yeah. Look, I'm personally like you, I'm not a huge fan of that movie per se. I've seen it a couple of times and it's not the most
interesting movie. And and this isn't my one, but it got as you were saying, it got me thinking. The other one that
I watched again recently with my kids and it was interesting because they were trying to trying to make sense of it all was the movie AI by Steven Spielberg with with Haley Joel Osmet plays the kid David who is a robot and AI trying to understand or trying to be you know, I think it's a Pinocchio syndrome.
Um, and I didn't like it the first time I watched it, but I have you seen the movie?
Yes. Yeah, I have. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I
So, I watched it again and and it's it's interesting because it's obviously it's like a lot of things. It's the layers underneath it and you watch it and you try and understand really what are they trying to say? I think when I watched it first time, maybe I was too young to really get the the subtext and,
you know, the characters that are in it and the story they're trying to tell around the pain of being a birthing a robot. so to speak
and giving it human emotions but then not expecting it to
have to deal with human emotions in that very human way and suffering
like you said it's that there's the same premise of the bison telly man it's that Pinocchio effect like you said you know the the trying to become a human and there's several movies that try to do that and they don't really
work that well do they thinking back at it there are kind of a few the you know AI iroot there's several that kind of um
that are kind of in an area where they don't jump out as classics. You know, the ones that we've talked about now, you think, ah, and and they all merge into one for me. You know, when I'm thinking of the AI movie you're talking about there, you know, you you can I can remember it, but um you know, you look back and you think, ah, you know, this kind of blended into one for me there.
Can you remember any details? That's the thing. It's one of those movies. No, not at all. It's really long.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And there was another one which which I I I was going to mention there before the the worst ones. One one that came in in my when I was eding myself of where these things are is AA in the exachina. Yeah. Where where they kind of,
you know, it's it's about that kind of um the turing test almost, you know, the computer programmer at that point spending time with a robot creator and they want to try to know if the the guy in the movie can be fooled by Ava who's like a robot but she's got emotions programmed into there. You know, there that that element kind of of that human um robotic AI relationship is like fascinating in popular culture.
It is and you know we could probably go on because now you've just reminded me the other one that I actually love and I'm I think it's a great re-imagining of the series is Westworld if you watch that at all. So you know all of the robots are in that are just getting that idea of humanity. What I like most about that one is if you think about the ones you just the ones we just gone through it's sort of the robot robot has been the AI has been given emotion and it's kind of go, okay, go deal with it or demonstrate how you can be human. Whereas in the Westworld one, if you've seen the series at all, you know, as the robots are,
they're just kind of becoming aware of that existence that they have. They are they're remembering their, you know, that they're multiple deaths as the movie, you know, as the show um is about.
And it's that kind of general slow recognition that they're actually real and defining what real is. I think actually that's a that's a that's a really good one. I don't think that's a worst one. I think that's That's a
what's your worst then if you
my my worst one. Okay. Well, look, you know, it's funny. I think it continues the same theme that you brought up, which is where we try and get a machine to be human and emotional but kind of get it wrong. Um, and I hate to say this because I'm a big fan of the movies. I love the movie when I was a kid. At least the first one, not the second one. The movie Short Circuit.
Oh, that was a great
mid 80s.
Uh, it was a great movie and I think if you remember your kid self watching it, you just laughed along at the the jokes and the stupidity of it all and this idea that this robot could cook pancakes and dance with with Ali Shidi.
But in I've watched it again in recent times with my daughter because I kind of told her it was a movie I loved and then we're watching it and she and she kind of said to me she said you know dad this movie it it's a bit racist because there's this character in it who's an who's just meant to be an Indian engineer
not played by an Indian Indian person uh with a hugely kind of you know um ized accent and you kind of go wow that's you know time does not it has not aged well and so apart from the fact that the whole movie has sort of not aged well I still look back on it with those rose tinted glasses
but what bothers me most is I was watching it and thinking you know Johnny 5 the robot
what they tried to do is they created this robot which if you remember is kind of a a funny thing on rolling wheels with arms and an ET style
head cross between ET and and like Wally wasn't he from the Yeah. And well Wally. That's the other one. Of course, Wally. But I think it's maybe it was around that. It was probably not far off the time when ET was released. Early 81, I think ET was
um but they tried to give it this emotion, but it just had no human characteristics whatsoever. You know, it was it it was feeling and it could have emotion. It loved a butterfly. It had feelings for um Ali Shidi, the character she played. And
and I think when I when I look back and I go, "Yeah, you know what? It's just a bit cringy. It's not actually a good AI. There's nothing about it." I go and think, oh, you know, That's there's emotion there. Like if I think about another movie from that same era, Electric Dreams, where Edgar the computer that cuz you know the guy buys the computer and he's and she he uh takes control of his house.
Um I can watch that one and enjoy it because it's fun and there's nothing I'm trying to it's not trying to tell me anything too deep.
Yes.
Whereas this one, it's trying to make this robot human have an emotion but with no context or backstory. So for me,
sadly, sorry Johnny from my sorry sorry Young Lee from 1980 whatever.
I don't like it anymore.
And the the interesting one when you're talking there was about the the addition of humor to these things. I think whatever AI we get, you know, as soon as you get Cortana or Alexa setup, you always ask it for some of the fun things. You look at you look at C3PO on R2-D2, the some of the best scripted moments between those two robot AI characters in Star Wars. Always got a tinge of humor with them. They're always, you know, they've always got the irony. It's it, you know, they always do have that developed in there. So, it'll be interesting to see how when we start to um, you know, drive some of these things. I know Alexa's got hundreds of hidden Easter eggs in there. My kids love it. You know, they come in and they kind of ask Alexa to go left, right, up, down, left, right, up, down. It gives you some all kinds of uh funny um uh uh whit bits back. But
yeah, that that that addition of humor is is quite interesting.
Maybe we're just not ready for like you've got the, you know, good examples where AI is just dark and foroding and paints us a very sort of dystopian future of what we could end up like.
And then you've got AI that is positive and provides a amazing way that the future could look, you know, with Halo and Cortana just being so super helpful and sub and and not in any way trying to attack you and always trying to be friendly and helpful. And then you've got these ones in the middle where it's sort of trying to be a bit human but also trying to be dark. Maybe that's where it gets lost. It's we're not ready yet to to accept that there's a a middle ground. We just like to see the
extreme. I don't know.
I think you're right.
I don't know.
Um so, so let's have a look at some trivia questions then, shall we?
Around AI.
Yes.
Um
y I think we should do.
Yeah. So, let's have a think then. So, where I know we've mentioned this before. Let's see if we can test your memory a bit. Um where was the first instance arguably of AI referred to in pop culture?
I think you mentioned this in one of the first episodes. I well I remember mentioning obviously I think we've talked a lot about say the Dartmouth conference now that's not pop culture but that was in the 60s where AI became a thing where we called it AI but I'm going to yeah from memory you know I'm thinking back even further um because I think we've I remember I remember now I did some research on this one um for a different topic uh where robots so the idea about robots and the creation of sentient beings
Yeah. things that looked like us but were kind of not of us long before we thought about them being artificially intelligent but just an intelligent being. I think I know it would be or at least it's Frankenstein, isn't it?
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. You know, it's going to be one of those one of those um debatable topics. There's lots of different references, but you know, uh Mary Shelley wrote this, you know, uh 1818 around there somewhere. Um and you know, obviously made into the movies uh in the 30s. So, you know, this this is one of the best or greatest Gothic novels ever written. And um we we we've re hashed Frankenstein so many times. The original one, the original movie was still, you know, one of the best. It was it was fantastic. I don't know if you looked at any of those recently.
Yeah. The Boris Caroff.
Not recently. No.
And yeah, the Hammer the Hammer horror movies and all that. They they were really really well made and uh but you never you never see them uh replayed on lots of the TV channels these days. I think it might be worth dusting those out and showing them to the kids at some point because I'm always looking for um really good movies that I used to watch when I was a a kid. And I think that story
was a new one. It is um I mean that's a story that's been retold as you know. It's kind of the classic just the idea of the mad scientist creating weird science. I mean it's is a remake of Frankenstein in the put a slightly different tone of course.
Yes.
Um but wasn't there there was a Kenneth Browner one I think in like the 90s where he redid this but
yeah
um and and go on Dan I got to test you now
Frankenstein. Who is Frankenstein?
Oh it's the uh it's the actual doctor wasn't it? It was the doctor that created
Frankenstein. Yeah. What was the monster called anything?
Did it have a name?
No the No. Victor Frankenstein is the name of the doctor who built the monster. It's just doc Dr. Frankenstein's monster. I Well, sorry. I don't know. Maybe our listeners could tell us in the notes, but I don't know um who actually, you know, I don't think there's a name. But it's it's, you know, and and what's interesting is back then, of course, you know, 18, what do you say 1818 or something and the movie the 30 is
people didn't think about machines and robots. So then, so the creation of an artificial life was actually by stitching together humans, you know, or body parts, you know, they steal all the body parts out of the to the graveyard.
That's exactly right. And I suppose it was at the time as well when medicine was moving really quickly and people were, you know, the the anesthetics were were out. You know, I probably got my complete science um incorrect here, but there was a lot of medical uh movements uh early 1900s and
people replacing limbs and prosthetics and you know you know from the wars and things like that fixing people up. Um so there was a lot of things around at that time which were kind of bordering on um kind of probably illegal as well the grave robing. Yeah.
So, here's another question for you. Um see if you got this. This is a this is a tricky one. Um what sci-fi author used to write for Playboy magazine?
Well, it is it's a tricky one. Unless you're a bit of a sci-fi nerd.
You have to be a bit sci-fi nerd for this one.
You happen to know because this person who wrote this who who were used to write for Playboy and I think it's probably fair to say he he wrote articles that appeared in Playboy would probably be a nicer way of putting it for him. Um but as a young boy uh I'm now going to try and furiously remember the name of the show that he used to have on TV. Uh god was it was it mysterious world? I think it was called Mysterious World. I'm gonna have to look it up when I talk about Arthur C. Clark.
That's right.
Arthur C. Clark. He was you know and I remember in as a young boy he he had this TV series He's a prolific writer as you know of of great amazing amazing um uh uh stories. Obviously 2001 and 2010 are his of course. Yeah.
Um
and he used to read a lot of those books uh when I was a kid. And he lived in he used to live in some island somewhere and he and he had this show on the TV in the UK and it was in the UK in the I guess in the 70s. I don't know you might remember. Yeah. Mysterious world is what it was. Um but yes, he used to write and he wrote stories and I think there's a connection here isn't there? Because this story that he wrote for Playboy
Yeah. Is it connected to the last story in some way?
Yeah, that's right. Cuz it was he he he wrote a short st story called Dial F for Frankenstein. Um and it was it was about a telephone network takes over the world and then Tim Berners Lee like where where we connected in again to to the uh networks earlier on Skynet and things you know he was very much an inspiration for creating the worldwide web where you've got like a telephone network you know similarly where things are connected and starts to think for itself and then all the phones will start ringing and and all this kind of stuff. You know, it's all about the it's all about the network, I suppose. And people were really worried about that network and he he'd kind of really driven that along to to almost make it seem as if this network was artificial and he was kind of doing his own thing. Um so, you know, it's it's classic story, but yeah, it connects connects the dots together. I suppose when you look at um people writing in science fiction, I know that was kind of an open-ended question, but there were, you know, Arthur C. Clark u was was obviously one of those people that that that you know like you said 2010 I remember buying that one and that that that fascinated me that book that was really slightly different I need to read re read some of these things but you know I remember knowing Arthur C Clark and then seeing that book and reading that book um but yeah you know he's he's just uh renowned in in the area of technology and future thinking right
it's one of those people that just sticks in my mind as you know I think the other one that Arthur C. Clark said, pretty sure it was him was, you know, any any sufficiently advanced technology uh seems like magic or appears to be magic. Um I think that's another one that he said, tremendously forward thinking guy. And if you think that that story, you know, as you say about the telephone network, you there was the Dale of Frankenstein written in the 60s, I would imagine, and that sort of period of time.
Um you know, it's a real he was thinking about an idea that became the internet, but of course at the time we only had, you know, telephones were really the predominant mechanism for communication. So he took an idea that was future thinking but applied it to the technology at the time and I just yeah inc Playboy was a different magazine back then. Who knows?
Yeah, probably. Um okay, so let's uh let's have there's two more questions here. Um what about do you can you think about what might be different between the Sylons in the 1978 version of Battlestar Galactica versus the Sylons? You remember that brilliant series, isn't it? Um versus the 2003 series Battlest Star Galactica. I'll give you a clue here. It's the type of uh uh the type of Oh, I can't give you a clue without giving it away. Yeah. Um let me have let me have a think.
Let me have a think on this one. Um
because I remember the 1978 series. That's one I used to watch as a kid, but obviously that's a long long time ago. And I remember the Sylons being these kind of robot uh you know, robot protagonists that were trying to kill or attack the humans and Earth as I remember. But I never watched the new season. So, you know what? I don't know. You're gonna have to tell me this one. This is
Okay. So, well, well, if you remember back in the 19 1978 version, it was very much around um a really long extinct uh reptilian alien race. So, the Sylons were actually um like a a reptilian alien race. Whereas in the later versions of Battlestar Galactica, they were actually more machine servants of humanity. So, it was kind of an interesting spin on the way that we uh and and science fiction and technology kind of portray um that element of AI.
Yeah, that's interesting. So, yeah, now I think about it, you know, it's my head spinning. I'm getting my head confused with um I think it was V was the series where the reptilian lizard people were coming back to Earth, which is which is probably more 80s than 70s.
But no, so the Skylines were rep. So, it is interesting then if the future one was more about kind of the if you like almost the Terminator idea where we created it and it then takes over us
whereas in 1978 we were happy enough to think about it being some alien race. Yeah, that's uh
yeah interesting
interesting interesting insight. Now I might go and watch that. Yeah.
Yeah. Now I'll have to go watch the new one now.
Definitely. So um last question and I know you mentioned this last time in one of the um one of the episodes.
Whopper.
Wr and what movie it was from? Uh, well, you're asking exactly the right person. So, um, yes, I did I mentioned this, I think, in the very first episode because it's one of my all-time favorite movies. The movie was War Games in 1983. That's right. In fact, in fact, my son Joshua is named after the uh the program
that runs on Whopper, which was the name of the uh the scientist's son. Um, I just love that movie. I love that idea. I think at that time, that movie really, you know, that was the Cold War time, you know, and I, you know, Being a kid growing up in the 70s and 80s, I remember those times where we genuinely believed World War II was imminent. Um, and so what you needed to do was you needed to um have a computer, the Whopper,
that could run war simulations and then determine the best outcome. And of course, as we know, if you watch the movie, the best outcome is not to fight.
Yeah.
Which was which again, you know, any to my delicate 12-year-old brain in 1983, that was one of those profound moments where you go, Oh wow. So actually the right thing to do is not to do it at all. That's that's a turning point. But to answer your question
and it was it was it was also the interesting part was it was the very seldom you see in technology films um people actually programming a computer. You know you you see people taping away and then you always do yeah I sometimes do a screenshot or take a photo of it and see what nonsense is on the screen. There's some great great things that people are typing nonsense on there. Um but uh So in in that one I remember and just thinking back to I remember they play tic-tac-toe to make the um
that's the that's the game.
Yeah. And to try to make the computer understand that you couldn't win in in some cir circumstances that had a profound effect on me because every time I play tic-tac-toe I always bloody won or lost. But there was a way to kind of either they actually were programming that game and he was playing and kind of not coming up with uh you know uh an actual actual winning situation. There was a draw. whole game and he was teaching like machine learning almost
that was I mean that was the beautiful thing about it was that idea that um that you can teach a computer the futility of war
um you know and that's obviously a big topic in of itself but the idea that tic-tac-toe which is a game which is futile because if you play it logically it's impossible to win
um you know you you always end up in a draw it's almost uh you have to you have to go make a mistake in order wanted to lose. No offense because you said you won. You have to make a mistake. Um
and so the whopper, the war operations planned response, which is the answer to your question. Yes, it is. And I didn't go look it up. I knew that one anyway. Um you know, it was designed to run all these simulations on World War II and work out what's the right number of casualties, what's the right preemptive strike versus reactive strikes, which targets to hit. And all the time it wasn't really thinking about the core question, which was should I even do it in the first place? which I think you know when we
you know I think wraps a nice little bow in this idea that today when we think about AI and when when we you and I know when you and I as employees of our company go and talk about AI there's this undermining question that we sit that sits in the back of your head always which is when we talk to customers is just because you can do something should you do it what is the societal human impact on doing it now of course war and war games was the ultimate societal impact total destruction against the uh you know today when we deal with simple AI solutions that might have an impact on individuals and citizens and communities the question still remains should you be doing it have you really thought through all of the possible alternatives to the one you're going
then that's absolutely right isn't this more relevant than ever when you when you look at the current climate with the algorithms inside Facebook Amazon all companies you know there there's there's a lot of questions being asked now which have been around
um time in memorial really and those questions are coming out just in a different uh with a different lens I suppose.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there's no real answer, Dan, but you know what? I've thoroughly enjoyed the last uh 30 40 minutes talking to you about AI and I've got lots of movies to go watch now.
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Lee. It's been a brilliant episode. Thank you so much.
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.