Nov 4, 2021
In this podcast, Dan and Lee speak to an amazing Australian musician and creative artist Elle Graham aka Woodes, and explore music production, digital audio tools from Autotune to quantisation and to Minecraft and collaboration.
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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast
Series: 4
Episode: 12
This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.
Hi Lee, welcome to the AI podcast. How are you doing this
week?
Dan Dan Bowen. I'm doing well, my friend. It's uh it's another
month's gone by. You hardly notice with this lockdown. It just
feels like every day is Groundhog Day, huh? H
I know. I know. It's raining today. That that kind of makes me
makes me feel nice sometimes because it's been sunny. So, it's a
bit of a Viety in my life. Sunny yesterday.
That must be the crazy Welshman in you that likes it to rain. Cuz
trust me, it's nothing good about rain other than I guess from the
farming point of view. It's great.
Yes.
Winter and rain. That's all I love.
Well, now I'm looking forward to summer myself. Hey, you know what
I found out this I discovered this week as well, Dan? Yeah.
Is as you know, I've been in and out of Microsoft a couple of
times. This week was actually my 14year anniversary at Microsoft.
So, I'm pretty sure I get a bit of I get a bit of crystal coming up
in
Fantastic. Wow. That's brilliant. That's Fantastic. Well,
congratulations.
You must have a big stash of these crystal things. I think they
keep forgetting about me. They Nobody seems to know how long I've
worked at Microsoft cuz I've gone in and out through contracting
and permanent roles. I think I think they still they think I've
only be there six months.
To me, it feels like you've been here forever down there.
I've never had anything in the nicest possible way.
Yeah. All good. Um, so today we've got a really, really exciting
guest. We've been waiting for for this for quite some time, Lee,
haven't we? So, today we've got Graham aka Woods. Hi, welcome. How
are you?
Hey, thanks so much for having me.
No problem.
Awesome to have you here. Um, yeah, just so exciting. I mean, I
we're going to get into all the amazing things you do when we get
talking about it. Um, it's just great to have you here. I've got a
first question if I can because he introduced you then as L, which
is your name, of course, but you go by the name Woods.
Yeah,
that's your stage name. Yeah.
Yeah. So, um, I have a musical project called Woodes. Um, which
which I run um out of Melbourne in Australia and I've been doing
that for the last maybe five years um just doing it as my primary
job which is really exciting and um I record music and produce
music, do songwriting, usually do a lot of touring but it's been uh
you know very stationary these days. Um so yeah, I've just I love
creating things with other people and um and sort of making The
world of woods lets me do um artistic direction and work on film
clips as well as the whole sort of escapism world of woods which I
create with the music.
Fantastic. And so so tell us about yourself. Where were you from
originally?
Um I grew up in Townsville so that's up the top of Australia. Um my
mom is well was a marine biologist and my dad um a park ranger. So
I had a really sort of natural environment growing up and um Yeah,
I I suppose like I was there till I was about 19 and just really
wanted to pursue music and that's what brought me to Melbourne.
That's fantastic.
Right. So So you moved to Melbourne for the music but you started
doing music up in up in Queensland, did you?
Yeah. Um so I played piano when I was about eight and I I can't
remember when I started singing, but I was in choirs all throughout
school and um and sort of got into like the musical theater world
for a bit. Um and started doing songwriting when I was about 11. Um
because I don't know, I was doing classical music and I didn't
realize that you could kind of start breaking the rules and make
your own things and piece together. Um I I think I've always like
just really enjoyed the idea of piecing things together and working
out how things work. Um that's been a big part of my process. So
from 11 when you're like, "Oh, I can use these chords and make my
own thing." Um that sort of Yeah. led me down a big rabbit
hole.
Interesting, isn't it? Because like we know when you're going to
talk about technology a little bit later and creativity, but it's
always been an interesting one when you you're talking about school
there and school goes through the curriculum and you know you've
got to you've got to learn specific things and then create
compositions and then you know like it's always fascinating to me.
It's the same with things like art. It's how do you measure
creativity? You know, if you come up with a a song uh you know some
people might love it, some people might hate it and and then and
then you kind of go well how do you mark that? How do you assess
that and how do you be what is creativity in music you know
everything should be I suppose.
Oh definitely like I was very grateful to have some great mentors
throughout um that time where my piano teacher um she was teaching
me sort of the classical approach and we're going through the sort
of books and doing um AMD which is sort of the grading system. Um
so yeah when I said I'm really interested in just learning chords
which I guess as a guitarist you may learn that but on piano I was
doing right hand, left hand, not necessarily piecing it all
together. I was like, this is the harmony of this section and this
like this is the chord that I'm playing. Um, it was more just like
the notes and um
yeah, when I said I wanted to learn the chords and break down some
of my favorite songs and start songwriting, she was very very
supportive and I would get to do like my own songs at the end of
year recital when other people were playing out of the books. And
um yeah, it's really scary showing that early stage of creativity
cuz they weren't good songs. Um, they were very, very I'm sure they
were. Yeah, I'm sure they were like,
yeah, you say that by me.
It's funny, El. I mean, and I'm not even going to try and compare
myself to you, but um, I remember my distinctly at school being
taught music and hating it. I mean, I just couldn't understand why
I had to stick to these rigid rules of how to do it. And I was a
piano player. I play piano now. And it was only when I realized,
like you, that I can do what I want on this and make my own sounds,
and it's just as good
that it kind of opened up to me and I think if I'd never discovered
that like you I don't know if I even would have continued playing
music then it's that moment of creativity I think that really kind
of sparks that
moment where you you take that leap so it's awesome to hear you did
that.
Yeah I've I've had that chat with friends who like when I when I
wanted to learn guitar my dad's a really great guitarist and he
just said um here's a chord play that a hundred times and um that
is very that is one style like that is a good approach but when
you're sort of 10 and you're like but that's really boring ing. Um,
and I know that's how I'm going to get better, but I think the the
real flip of the switch is like here's how you play you and your
friend's favorite song on guitar and then all of your friends are
like, "Whoa, you can play that song on the the guitar." Like, being
able to share has always like I think that's one thing I've really
missed in this pandemic is like realizing just how much of my
energy comes from playing with my band and um being able to be at a
festival where I'm watching someone else that I know playing and
being like Oh, that's how they're doing that. I really like that.
I'm gonna like it all all kind of feeds in when you're just in this
like solo echo chamber of your own thoughts. It's like it can be
hard to to really get that um creativity.
And that's an interesting point when we coming on to the technology
part to this because I think you know you you know we I suppose the
story is going through from where you've grown up and how you
learned music but then I suppose technology influenced your life at
at some point. When when when was that? When when did you start to
go from, you know, the piano or the keyboard to then kind of, I
suppose, MIDI and then the artificial sounds that you could bring
in to sample on top.
Yeah. Um, well, I was I guess I played like games and did have a
computer at home. I played like the Sims and things and um my mom
is very techsavvy and
so that was always around simultaneously. And uh I would say a big
moment for me was at the end of high school or maybe like in my
final year of high school, I really wanted to get a laptop and
getting my own laptop, they were pretty chunky, but um getting one
uh and being able to use software like Garage Band or whatever,
like it's all there readily accessible, that was a huge game
changer in that I didn't necessarily know that I was embarking on
being a music producer. Um I didn't know many female music
producers. I didn't know many music producers in my town. Um so,
but All I was doing was just being like, "Oh, cool. Cool. Now I can
have an archive of what I like playing and and sing on top of my
own voice and just use the piano and use my voice." So, at the
beginning, it was really just that. And that's what excited me,
manipulating those two layers that I could control.
So, so it sounds like I mean, you've you you were taught music, but
you've self-learned how to produce music and create. Were there any
kind of I mean, how did you get started in learning to produce? Did
you just go through trial and error, or did you Was there ways that
you found that you could actually learn how to do the music
production?
Um, well, I had, again, it's like I had a really good friend of
mine who like had heard that I I could play all these songs and was
like, "Let's do you want to do an EP together?" And this was in my
final year of school and I didn't really know um what an EP was or
like how to or even really what music engineers did. Like I knew
front of house sound engineers from going to live concerts with my
family and stuff, but um I didn't Yeah, I wasn't really across all
of that. It felt very foreign and like you know you have the big
recording studio desk and I I yeah like that just seemed like quite
advanced. Um but yeah, my friend Mitch ended up recording a lot of
my songs and you could kind of look over his shoulder and be like,
"Oh, cool. That's how you do that. That's how you do that." So
there was that element of self-taught that you're experimenting and
there's no real rules, which I really love about music production.
Um but simultaneous to that, uh in my town there was a creative
arts campus. Um up at James Cook University and they had a sort of
it's kind of like an all round sound course but there was a lot of
sound engineering in that so I did a diploma and there weren't very
many women there but uh lots of guys who played metal and like
really heavy music and that was awesome because like I don't mind I
I love all music I love um just that the joy that comes from it
and
yeah I I still remember doing like a mixing module of that course
and my friend Tom was like, "You need an EQ, you need a
compressor." Like, he gave me a big a list of what I should
probably use in my mix. And um and then he's like, "Just use your
ears." Like, just wind the wind everything until like it'll either
distort or it'll, you know, but like just use your ears. That's the
thing that no one else can like compare. Everyone does their own
thing. And um yeah, I really enjoyed mixing. And it's like just
being thrust into that position of the unknown was was great. So is
that when you started then to go from like Garage Band Band and
some of those tools that you you start to dabble with into like
heavier tools like Ableton or Logic or whatever it might be.
Yeah, I was in ProTools for that diploma. Um, and that was good in
that I mean it it's always been kind of the industry standard. I
think it's changing now, but it's very very good for recording like
piano and voice and a live band running lots and lots of channels
into it. Um, I went from that into a program called Logic Pro,
which
I I was drawn to one because I started like experimenting in Garage
Band and it's kind of just the pro version of that. Um, and the
second was it has lots lots of in-built sounds. So, um, I was able
to play around with different instruments and like you can record
it all in on piano and then swap out the MIDI for saxophone or, um,
synths. And, um, I just really enjoyed diving into those libraries.
Where do you where do you think then you know because this is an AI
podcast I suppose and this is kind of like an interesting bit that
that we we've been talking about you know for years I suppose is
is
you know you've got the creativity and you've got those parts but
then where where does the AI in some of these tools start to blur
now I know there was a I've been watching a a Mark Ronson kind of
docu series on Apple TV recently and he talks about autotune for
example but there are multiple you mentioned
uh quantizing of notes or anything like that you can You're taking
the musician out of it, but are you interesting idea? What are your
thoughts on that?
I mean, it's kind It makes me think of like if you're writing a
book or something and you have an a really great editor or like
you're like quantizing is sort of the the pushing to all of your
notes. Say say you play it in on the piano, you quantize, you pull
it all to the grid. Um, so it's really tidying it up. You can then
make a really tidy beat. Like you can play in a beat on the piano
and it'll all lock into the grid. Like I love that tool. Um that's
that's like a really great editor to me. That's just the I can go
in and just play what I'm feeling and then just be like and tidy.
Um and I feel the same with autotune is that
I've actually been watching quite a lot of different like there's
some great programs on um streaming channels on like all these
different music softwares and uh autotune's so interesting in that
it was it was meant to just be a tuning thing but then you have it
as a creative tool because I think there's a lot of confidence that
comes with I'm not a singer, but I'm just going to sing into this
thing that gives me perfect pitch and all of a sudden I can roam
all around. I like it's just a joy. Um you may not like leave it on
your final track, but I think in terms of a creative tool, I've
used it a lot where all of a sudden I feel invincible like I'm Sea
or um Beyonce or something and be like, "Oh, I can go up there. I
can I can do whatever I want."
That's interesting the way you've spun that to that which is great.
And I suppose the other thing like the other interesting thing is
that what seems to have happened you know I couple my friends do
produce DJ tracks and things like that and like when I listen to a
guy called Rick Bat on in his YouTube channel and he's a muso and
he always talks about you know the way that you can hear digitized
drums and bass and things because people add those you know they do
the keyboard stuff and and this AI now that that when I was looking
at my friends doing DJing they they got AI to actually unquantize
stuff. So to to like slightly off. Yeah. Yeah. So So he he like
listens to the the drums and he goes, "Ah, this is too clean, you
know? It's every human. It's not It doesn't feel
And real drummer drummers slightly rubbish. So it's like a
rubbishifier."
Yeah. Oh man. I It's funny. I have some plugins where it's like
Sketch Cassette and um the RC20, which is like it literally makes
it bad like it's it's making an old vinyl sound or like crunchy
tape or a sampler
and it's Yeah. You speak to engineers from the 80s or I don't know
70s or something they're like why no like we've come so far keep it
clean. Um
is that is that plugins for Logic Pro?
Um on all of them any like any software. Um but yeah I
it's fascinating. So the interesting now so we've gone through your
journey but then there was you know when co comes in and touring
and things stop, then you got to think innovatively, right, about
how you're going to get your music out to your fans. And you did a
really cool project, right? You're involved in Minecraft. You need
to tell us about that cuz that's awesome.
Um, yeah. Well, I was working on my debut album for about two years
and I pushed it back to March 2020. Um, which is just kind of
hilarious. Um,
good timing
because it was really bad month to push it back to.
Yep.
Um, and we were having these sort of discussions, you me and my
team just being like, "Oh, do we put it out this year? Do we do we
hold off until there's some kind of normal?" And um and I just felt
like it's that time stamp on like this album is how I feel right
now in a couple years time. Uh like I I want to put it out now and
what are some ways that I can do it? Um and from lockdown and one
of the ideas I had was uh building a server in Minecraft, which um
is a concept that kind of stems from I used to have a a server with
my housemates in about 2017 where we would all just jump on after
work and and play in our own little world, our own little village,
and like farm and go on adventures. And I just I really enjoyed the
game and that it's like a social chat. And um better than just
speaking via text or messenger or something. Um so I thought it
would be cool to involve my audience and community in building a
server that we could all jump in and essentially build my album in
Minecraft. which was a pretty wild idea. Um I remember the first
meetings just being like this is my idea and it's like okay let's
go. Um and a big catalyst for it was um I saw a a guy called Ruben
who uh worked with me on this project. Um he's based in Adelaide
and he built Splender in the Grass which is a really popular
Australian music festival. He built it in Minecraft and because um
Ruben Gore is a
a filmmaker um usually um He also plays games, but he was he was
sort of like compiling all of the the sort of content or like the
the video from a filmmaker's perspective. So, it's like you're
roaming around the festival almost like you're in a drone and all
of the shots are really like high quality and and really just
beautiful. And so, I reached out to him the day that went live and
I was like, "Okay, I've got a crazy idea, but would like would you
like to work on this?" And from that initial conversation, all of a
sudden we like collaborating every week and building this whole
world with my fans. Um, and simultaneous to that, I was going into
further lockdowns with um,
Melbourne just remaining in lockdown where you couldn't have anyone
over or do anything that we had planned for the album. So really
the only world we could plan things in was Minecraft. Um, which is
awesome.
So So I I got to break this apart. So you you built a Minecraft
server. You had this guy Ruben who understands the videography and
the kind of that And then you said you and then you had fans and
were you building like a an a part of the world for each song? This
is for your Crystal Ball album. Is that right?
Yes.
So you're building a for each of the songs on the album, you built
a little part of the world. Is that how it kind of worked? What was
the sort of creative side of that?
Um so my album uh is called Crystal Ball. And so I knew I wanted to
have almost like the crystal ball emoji from your your text is uh
like a big purple crystal ball in the middle of the town. And um
there's 10 songs on the album. So The idea was to have an
interactive map where I I would set out little challenges and um
explain to my community um on Twitch uh and you know on on all my
other social platforms what the song was about, what the lyrics
were, and I'd give them little snippets here and now here and then,
but like I uh they didn't really hear it as we were building it. So
then they get to go back when the album's actually finally out and
be like, "Oh, I'm in the song." Um So yeah, I
So they like So were they like building things that were if they
didn't know the song, they were just building it based on the title
or kind of what you
Yeah. A good example. Um so when I write songs, I usually think of
different terrains or placing myself in a different environment,
whether it's like being inspired by a film or um a rainforest or a
desert. And I think one of the like no-brainer moments with
Minecraft was just that it generates these different terrains um in
the game. Um so you you have deserts and rainforests and um
waterfalls and all of these places where like it it immediately was
like, "Oh, I'll build um Queen of the Night, which is about being
in the desert and sort of like the Sandman and all of these things.
I'll put that in there and then get all of my fans to build temples
and sort of shrines to that song and um build the lyrics in
different parts." Uh I mentioned like a field of purple flowers, so
we built this massive like massive massive field. Uh and yeah, it
was just really cool um to be able to wander around inside of a
song.
That's fantastic, isn't it?
So,
yeah, it's amazing.
When you're thinking about uh these people coming together, they
were contributing in the Minecraft world.
Um but you'd already written the album,
right? So, so what did you how did you actually what was the
process towards the end of that then? So, once you got it all
together, did you then put that on a website? Did you make that
world available? What was the what was the output at the end? So, I
used a few different platforms for this. So, essentially I built uh
the initial world, the Crystal Ball, inside of Minecraft, and I had
the server set up um with Reuben where we put in like a little
fishing village and we put together a trailer to say, "Welcome to
the world of Crystal Ball um this summer." Like, it was meant to be
like a a full film trailer like get involved. Um and then I I was
really interested in trying um the platform Twitch, which is of
like a live streaming gaming platform. I knew that
in terms of playing Minecraft on that platform, there's a lot of
viewers that just sort of search via that tag. Um, so there's a lot
of sort of potential exposure to new um, communities and new fans.
Um, and I'd also seen some really great producers like Hana um, use
the platform to actually make music. Like I'll be in the studio and
be live streaming that process up on Twitch. Wow.
So I was really keen to do both of those things, like try try to do
some gaming, try to do some music making. Um, and I also use
Discord, which is sort of like a great tool for communities. It's
kind of like um I used I use Facebook groups a little bit for my
woodlings, which is my fan group. Um, but we also have a Discord
server, which what I really like about it is it's almost like a um
community slack or like a um everything's organized by hashtags and
And you can go go, "What are you listen? What films are you liking?
Show me photos of your pets." Or like, "What's your favorite wood
song? Um, what are some good ideas? I'm writing a song about loss.
Like, do you guys have any stories that you want to put into this
or like some lyrical ideas and then we'll go and do a live stream
based on that?" Like, it's it's bringing my community in even more
to the Woods universe. So, having those two platforms meant that it
was really all about community and and Crystal Ball World in
Minecraft could have just been me streaming by myself, making a few
little things, but I think the the outcome was really that 20 to 40
people came in and just kept building and building and having new
ideas and new um creations and um it just got way bigger than I
than I thought.
I you sort of hinted at it there um l and I was going to ask you
the question because you using Minecraft as a collaborative
creative environment. You all together, you build together. That's
the point of it. But then maybe you get into the world of music
co-c collaboration and you're actually, you know, if you using the
technology like Discord and Twitch and other tools, could you
collaboratively write the song with your, you know, with the
community? Yeah, they they contribute.
Yeah, I have.
Beats and words and and kind of sequences and riffs and things.
Yeah, you've done that.
Yeah, I think um it's amazing how quick technology can be for
online collaboration now. Um where you can start a shared document,
you can um you can just be like drop some files in this folder. Um,
the beat is at 120 and we're in Bflat major. Uh, send through some
ideas and you can really piece them in real time. Um, and I've seen
some really great live streams on Twitch with music makers where
it's like we're sampling hitting a cabbage and like making a kick
out of that. And like it's just really fun to watch because you're
like, "Oh, I had no idea you could do that." And also that's my
cabbage or you know like I had no idea.
Well, it's just been phenomenal for creative people, right? Cuz
like I know my kids, we we we dial into like um hot dub time
machine every Friday. Um and he does a live set, you know, he's
finishing that up now because we coming out to co but
you know people are really innovating. Co's allowed people to kind
of do this and especially creative industries where you know people
thrive for performing right you can get an immediate audience and
even get income from it.
Yeah. I think it's performing, but it's also just that feedback
where like um I know for me personally, I would go and join my
favorite streamers because it's like I'm jumping in the chat and
it's an excuse to hang out with my friends in the chat. The stream
is almost like um it's happening and like I'm I'm grateful that
they brought us there, but it's like walking into a room with
people you know mainly like on the internet. Sometimes you they're
like a group of friends that you know outside of that, but like
it's it's something very beautiful in those online streaming
unities where um you just don't feel so alone and you can um really
bounce off each other and and help like at the beginning of
streaming it's there's so many things to learn um with technology
and I would have other streamers jump in my chat and be like what
you need to do is change this setting restart your stream we'll all
be here like give it five come back to us l and I mean that's just
so lovely like uh it it makes you learn really quickly because you
have this um this group of people cheering you on and offering
feedback. Um so I think there's yeah definitely a level of
accountability in that learning process because there are literally
people watching you work it out.
It's it's it's I think it's really um it's really lovely to hear
the way you describe it because if I think back to sort of not even
my generation but the generations between us where there was a
perception that being online was an antisocial activity. It was a
solo activity. It was not a thing that you would do to connect
people.
Yeah.
And it's sometimes harder for people even of our generation and
others to kind of understand that leap. But the way you talk about
it, Ellen, you make it you don't even have to validate it. You just
describe it as being a a place where you actually that's where you
live. That's where you experience these great moments with
people.
Yeah.
It's it's not different. It's just normal. That's what it is. I
love hearing it. I I because I've got kids who spend their days on
Discord and
and Twitch and stuff and, you know, like why would you do that? But
I understand that it's so much more
I think. Yeah. Especally especially when you can't like just the
idea of the randomness of running into strangers or um say being at
a live show and it's like oh you should meet my friend here. It's
like at the moment I really missed that where it's just like the
opportunity to share and uh meet someone new with new perspectives.
And on streaming you can have people where it's like hi I'm here
from Berlin. What are you doing? What's this Minecraft thing? Um
how can I do it, too. Um, and it's, yeah, it's just kind of nice
cuz you're just like, what are you doing? Like, what what's the
temperature there? Or like, what's um, that's so cool you're here.
How did you learn about this? Um, as opposed to just going into the
same circles and feeding the same loops of things. Uh, yeah, I I
really enjoyed that bit, too.
And going back to the technology um, side of it, thinking about
what you did there, I know we talked before this call, you talked
about this gear vortex, right? because obviously we're now thinking
you you've got all this experience and it' be great to kind of
give people some pointers going forward but you know we explored
that creative element as well and how that's kind of affected you
and you know you have lots of gear around and you've gone bought
different things like your laptop and things what what effect has
the technology you've used had on that creative process and what
have you learned from the fact that there's all these software
tools and hardware that that are available what would your advice
be to people who are kind of listening in today.
Well, I I do some mentoring with um uni students doing music
production and I'm very wary when I talk about plugins or like
pieces of gear where I think it would help them. I'm not a salesman
and I'm not saying that you need this to be something because I've
heard phenomenal records that are recorded on the worst mics. Um
like absolutely pushing your laptop to the max. It's heating up.
You're taking breaks just to like keep going like your ideas and
your um the performance itself is often what carries it I think
like thinking of like Bonver and like I was just going to say that
now like literally and we're all we all romanticize this idea like
he only had a cabin and like a single mic and and like that
soundtrack so many incredible memories around the world. Um the
gear isn't important like it's good but It's not it's not like the
thing that you need to be able to create. I think that's an
important thing. But there is definitely a gear vortex where I have
friends who like we all just chat about gear all the time and we're
really excited by it. And there's something about getting a new
plugin that has a sound that immediately sounds good in its presets
and you're like, "Oh, I've now I'm about to write a whole new song
and like it's just because I pressed one note and it felt so
right." Um, and it's yeah, trying to find and all these these
different tools of inspiring a thought or flipping over into that
idea, but you don't want to you don't want to let the gear be like
the thing that it's like this uh addiction.
Like if only I had a better mic, I would be a better singer.
Honestly,
I think I fall into that trap often.
Spend a bit more money, it'll be something.
Yeah. Yeah.
I was I was listening to an interview with Brian May last week on
that Rick Bat's YouTube channel. Like I said in the interviewed him
and they were talking about in Bohemian Raps City how they didn't
have like a amount of tracks. Yeah. They they had they had a
certain limited amount of tracks. It was no digital technology and
they were sitting there and they had to really gamble on a lot of
it and go, "Well, we we've got all of these tracks and vocal layers
we've put down. Are they perfect?" And they're like, "Oh, no. We we
haven't we've run out of tracks and space." And then they had to
like literally record all of those tracks onto one
and then that's it. And they were like, you know, this is a big
gamble here. We could lose it all. Uh, you know, and I think it
pushes you to
innovate, I suppose, when you've got, you know, a bit like in co,
you know, you've had to innovate.
Yeah.
Yeah. I' I've had those chats with friends quite a bit where it's
like I've written some good songs where I've been on like traveling
and me and my friend are trying to write a song and we don't have a
studio space and we just write it on the floor of like wherever
like hotel room, spread all the gear around, just write a song and
you're like, "Oh, well, this doesn't even have to be good because
we're not in a good environment like this and all of a sudden you
write something really amazing because you've just let your guard
down. Um whereas you could just be in a perfect recording studio
and be like this has to be amazing because it's so expensive to be
here and you might write something that's just not that great. Um
it's it's an interesting thing. Um and I think one of the things I
love about talking to other collaborators or musicians is like
figuring out how everyone finds their spark or like what tools they
have to start the day because some people will bring in like a
whole like they need to have something to start with. Like the idea
of starting from scratch is super daunting and it's just empty
space. Um and other people will bring in like a whole bunch of
samples where it's like oh I collected these on a trip where it's
like a stream or it's a that's probably what I would do is like be
like I found this really great saxophone sample. I think we should
manipulate that and start with that because it just feels so um
it's like breaths. It's just like this beautiful starting point. Um
But then other people will be like really pull back everything and
just be like let's just write on the guitar and then we'll put it
into the computer and other people it's the total opposite. Like I
think it's it's the same with like gear where you're like finding
these different things to try and engage you in partaking in
creative expression. Um I'll try someone's technique to to get in
that zone and then I'll try someone else's technique. And the trick
is to just keep
keep it fresh.
It's a I find it to be one of those ing things and I mean l both
Dan and I are amateur aspiring musicians in in our own little parts
of the world but nothing nothing like where you are but I find one
of the hardest things and I think it's the tech that blocks it is
this the spark of creativity the starting point to kind of go you
know there's a song inside me somewhere I got to get it out
yeah
and and my approach has been typically well I'll just as you say
I'll buy a better mixer I'll buy a new set of plugins I'll I'll
upgrade the keyboard because it's the sounds aren't quite right
and I think you know so how do you What's your those creative
sparks? Where do where do they start for you? How do you is it just
like is it is it connected to the technology in any way or is it
really just that's kind of where you disconnect from?
I I listen to this really I've been really enjoying Rick Rubin's
podcast. Um but he talked to Brian Eno and it's like the idea that
a space like architecture could inspire you or like watching a
film. Uh I think Brian said something was like I see someone do
something I'm like oh I could do that a little bit better or like
what if it just did this like but I think yeah it's not like that
ego thing but it's more like oh I hear that and I really am excited
by it and what if it just was just slightly different or what if I
grabbed that sound and then fused it with this other thing. So I
think I I get a lot of inspiration from films and TV shows and
listening to soundtracks and going to live music and really feeding
off what's around me. Um but then I also keep a lot of mood boards
of like imagery on things like Pinterest and um I used to use
Tumblr quite a lot. Um where you just pull in different things and
that becomes like the visual component of the woods universe. Um or
you can do like exercises where you just write about what you see
in that image which is like just the textural things. Um which
could turn into a song other
Oh, sorry.
Well, I was going to say I guess thinking about it now that with
the Minecraft thing that you built, you're clearly a very visual
person and maybe the visual element drives the audio audio. the
element of it. You kind of you can feel it or see it and then you
can write it as a sound.
Definitely. Yeah. And I've written songs inspired by Minecraft in
turn where just like full circle all of a sudden I'm talking about
um being like in a fortress made of stone and um you know get your
pickaxes. I don't know. So like
uh yeah.
So for you was that that next element you you talked about
community development um earlier on and you talked about your fans
So you're coming out, we're coming out of lockdown hopefully in the
next month or so.
How's that going to develop? What's what is your plan to then we've
gone through this hybrid working or whatever you want to call it.
People have changed and picked up new practices.
Are you going to foster more of that or are you going to click back
into live performance or what are your thoughts about your fan base
these days as well? Not not forgetting, you know, based on Twitch
has made some artists keep getting cash in, right? So you got you
got Twitch there. You've got YouTube with the that's monetized. You
got Spotify that's manifi monetized and then you got live live
music. What are your thoughts now coming out of COVID uh and and
these lockdowns and how you're going to keep that fan base going
and community?
Yeah, I think it's a really exciting time. Like in the last five
years of me doing the Woods project, uh I've been pivoting very
regularly where it's like when I started it's like in comes a new
thing, Spotify. Um and like now it's in comes a new thing, Tik Tok
or whatever, it's like there's all these dis disruptions in your
industry. Um, and I think things like Twitch and live streaming,
it's exciting because we're hearing from more voices than ever
before in that um people who maybe can't tour for whatever reason
or uh want want like family balance and things like that. It's like
your your voice and your community is still being heard and I think
that's a really exciting part about those platforms. I think an
integration like for me personally um I am excited to get back out
and do some live shows and and see people in in real life because
that there is nothing nothing quite like that just feeling a part
of something feeling very human.
Yeah.
Um but I think I've been very blown away with how positive the the
live streaming and the inter interactive elements of like having a
Minecraft world or like even looking to the future with NFTTS and
like that there's all these new ideas that are just always an
exciting way forward.
Can I can I ask a question about that because that's that's really
something I haven't thought about. You're talking about playing
live now. Say if you're in your room, right, and you've now spent
like two weeks, three weeks, a month creating this amazing
multi-layered track with samples here then everywhere.
Yeah.
Then when you when you're going to go out to play that, presumably
you don't just go there and just press play. on your MacBook and
then go, you know, walk away. So, how how do you translate then a
digital and and a like a performance which is made on those sample
saxophones into something that's in a live environment?
Yeah. I I think from my first EP, I I had a lot of kind of like
slow songs that were just like quite peaceful and very vocal vocal
driven. Um, and then from playing them live for a bit, you're like,
okay, like I and I have something that's like a bit more powerful I
can jump around too and that's like a joy to play every night. So
then it slowly gets bigger and bolder. And I played with my band
mates Tim and Hayden um sort of since the beginning and we the the
process of making the music it's sort of build it in Logic um or
whatever Ableton now um and then bounce all of those stems out so
we have all of them as individual things or we could have them as
groups um and then from playing live, you're sort of like what is
the most engaging uh element of this song that could be performed
live? And it could I think like for me like being a percussionist
and being a a I don't know enjoying the performance side of it,
enjoying making something engaging. It's like um can I chop that up
and put it on a sample pad that I can hit with sticks or can we
pull this part down so that there's nothing happening except we
just start building a drum line or it's all cuts out and it's just
synth. Uh because I think if there's just a wall of sound at all
times, it's too much. And if it's completely skeletal and uh
sometimes that's not not enough. So, it's it's really being quite
inventive about uh that kind of music director role when putting
together a live show, figuring out like how do we have a beginning,
middle, and an end for the live show. Um what's our pin drop
moments? Like do we Yeah. I want to have something that's really
collaborative, like we're we're all over at the drum kit. It it
really is like a whole new thing putting together a live show. Um
whereas at the start, I think it would have been more of a press
play, sing along to that. Um
put some guitar over the top of it, just make it feel bigger than
it is. But now it's like, no, like let's put on a show. And um and
like really I think one of the things I really enjoy about live
music is knowing that things could go wrong. as an audience member
or like knowing that we're in the moment as an audience member. So
like there's really nothing like when I actually just have all
these big songs and then I just pull back just me and the guitar
and like you just slightly slip up on the the chord or like I
forget a word or whatever. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's
like everyone in that room in the moment is just like whoa. Like
you're just automatically locked into that. And um I don't want my
my live show to be so automatic and uh perfect and quantized to the
point where like we're just robots. I I think that's just something
that's like really good about being
being there with everyone on the
it's a good parallel to that kind of constant point that if I think
about the AI narrative here is that you always want to know that
there's AI and there's a place for AI and there's a place for
humans and you don't want to blur the lines between you know
automated music and human creative music and and you can lose that
a bit I think um For me, I I think Imagin Heap is someone who
springs to mind as someone who I admire as a musician, but I see
her convert what is often her music, which is sometimes really hard
to do. It's quite engineered music, but then when she plays it
live, she really reconstructs the songs completely differently. I
think sounds like that's kind of a similar thinking to the way you
think about it is that it's not reproduce what I've already
produced on the track. It's play my music in a way that can be done
live and play maybe sounds different, but it's it's the same song.
Definitely. Oh, well, Image and Heap is literally why I started
producing music cuz when I was like 11 or 12, um I saw I was really
obsessed with this show called The OC, which like teen drama. And
the soundtrack was amazing. And she had a song.
Yeah. Hide-and-seek. And I downloaded that that night. And I I
played that like a hundred times in a row. Like I just sat in my
chair and was like, "What is this?" And
and and when you and you've listened to it, it's such a simple song
called
but so hard. I don't think she could even do it again. Like I think
it was such an in the- moment thing and it's like it's this
autotune stacked
mechanical thing. And from reading about her creating that, she was
in her apartment and she just sang into this like voice recorder
and um then just chopped it all together. Like it wasn't it wasn't
too thought out. It was just in the moment. And there was like some
crazy stats about like how how downloaded that song was that night
cuz it was like 800,000 or something where it's like Like it's
amazing what that that moment did for her. And like for me it's
like it's changed my entire life because I I look at her and I'm
like
it's like being able to see someone doing something and be like,
"Oh, she just recorded her voice into a voice recorder." Like she's
not a I wasn't thinking, "Oh, she's a a producer or an engineer or
whatever." I was just thinking, "That's cool. I would I could do
that."
That's that's so good. It's been fascinating talking to you today
to kind of sort of think about bringing these things together. you
know, where where do you go from here? I suppose you've talked
about, you know, some of the things you're going to do with the
live performance and things. Are you working on anything currently?
How do people find out about the latest things from you? You know,
and I suppose the interesting thing as well, you talked about the
woods element, do you do you splinter off from that with your
creativity? Is L something that a brand that you you're fostering?
L
Yeah, exactly. Where do you go from here? What are you working
on?
Um, yeah, I'm working on a lot of music. Uh, I've had especially
like the last few weeks actually. But it's I think just spring is
so nice, just sunshine. Um changes everything. But uh yeah, I've
been working on a lot of new music where I suppose yeah, 2022 is
just a lot of releasing for me. Um I also in terms of a splintering
side project, I have another duo called Tornado Club. So I'm
working on an album for that um with a friend of mine who goes
under the kite string tangle. But yeah, like all of all of my music
can be found on places like Spotify. Um, and I'm on like Instagram
and all of those places. I'm just I'm really looking forward to
releasing music again. I think it was quite difficult last year and
Minecraft really was the joy of the whole situation because it's
like it it is really, you know, doing music independently and
working on a project for two years and then putting it out into the
world and just being like, I'm I'm in this room in Melbourne and uh
I I thought it would be different where I'd be over overseas. like
I'd be able to see people and actually celebrate that music. Um
yeah, it's I think it's just taken a small moment of just getting
back into the groove of things where it's just like I want to
invent. I want to um I want to have this big vision for the next
chapter. I don't want to just do it because I feel like I have
to.
Do do you think looking back at that that music you've done like in
co do you obviously it's going to affect people and you're talking
about spring there you know your entire demeanor changes doesn't
it? Everybody or all three of us on this call are kind of just very
happy spring. When you look back at your catalog you've been
producing in co
Yeah. I just I just wondering what the what the effect of co has
done when you're looking back at that catalog now that you're going
to release. Has that have you been able to take yourself away from
co or has it had a real focus on some of the content you've
created?
I think it definitely has seeped in but sometimes like I had I had
a good pattern before co where I would go on tour and I take a
moment to just live and just be like, I have to have stuff to write
about. So, I can't just put this pressure on myself that I have to
be making music every single day. I would do like these short
really in like intense bursts of just like I'm going to write uh
five tracks this week and I'm not going to answer my phone between
these times. And that would that would be a way of me just being
like, okay, um now I I feel like there's no guilt or whatever those
feelings are where I just um this is pure creativity and then the
rest of the time I can take those emails, I can take those calls
but um it was quite different in co in that you are just in this um
groundhog day where like um how do you make room for that
creativity last year uh in particular I was trying to make like
these big anthemic things that were for life and I was really
struggling with it honestly because um my album was very much live
driven where I was like this is the big climax at the end like
we're going to do this to it. I was thinking of all those
components and then you put out this album and like one of the
songs is called Euphoria and I put that out the week that we went
into stage 4 lockdown and it it was just like this you're like ah
this this isn't how it was meant to be like it's it's this funny
like you write stuff and then it comes out in a different time when
you feel a different way. Um but I actually there's this artist
that um I've recently met called Pat Carroll and he had this really
great Instagram post recently and he said as artists don't be
afraid to to just capture what you're feeling right now even if
it's not what you usually create and um he normally makes dance
music really amazing producer um up in Sydney and he was saying
like I'm drawn to ambient work and creating stuff that's more
meditative and really talking about the themes of what's happening
now you don't have to release it but like yeah putting these like
really harsh boundaries said, "I have to be making the Woods epic
Goliath show that I want I really do want to make, but it it
doesn't come naturally at the moment." Um, and from from reading
that post, it actually just
was like this big gate opened up where I was like, "Oh, like um
let's just chat about what I'm feeling." And I wrote a song about
missing milestones and I wrote about um being apart from loved ones
and like cuz in to a degree you're like, "Oh, it's too soon. It's
happening right now or it's lame. or something some kind of silly
boundaries we put on ourselves but it's like no I feel all of that
really heavy and missing milestones big and small ones it's like I
yeah that's how I'm feeling um so I'm just going to convert it in
and um by being vulnerable by being doing that it's like that's
usually the type of music that resonates the most so yeah
something you said there um sorry El there was um there was a
something that Tori Amos said a long time ago I remember because it
always sticks my head because it's a really interesting turn of
phrase where she said that um she writes songs for herself but the
minute she releases them they're no longer hers. Yeah.
And they're they're your audiences and they're other people's and
everyone will take it and do whatever they want with it. You can't
control it. And the hardest thing as an artist is for people to
take your music and not see it the way you saw it at the time you
the may way may way may way may way may way may way may way may way
may way may way may way you felt or the way you wanted it to
happen.
But once you release that
you realize that it's it's a whole different experience. And she
that's when she started stop you know started stopped worrying
about what people thought about her songs. and started enjoying
what they got from it as opposed to what she put into it. And it
sounds like what you're saying there as well. So
yeah, I released a song um in 2019 uh just before New Year's which
is on my album and it's called this is my year which is
that's a great song actually to that today.
Very funny song as time goes on it was like it wasn't. It really
was. Um but it was a song about like I love that kind of New Year's
energy and having resolutions and like you go to the gym, you sign
yourself up and then it's like you get to February and you're like
h maybe next year. Um and I every year I'm I'm trying to be a
better friend, daughter, human. Um and like whilst it's like the
concept of this is my year or like this is the best year ever can
sort of have that kind of negative thing or
whatever, it's it's something that I genuinely feel And I've I've
had a lot of really amazing messages from all over the place just
being like it it it helped me just feel cuz it's like I'll be so
strong, I'll eat so well, get some sleep, look after myself. It's
like just it's a a song that I wrote for myself to be the little
voice in my head to keep going. And it's quite amazing. Even though
I've gone through the process of releasing music for a few years,
it's just quite amazing that I'm the little voice for other people
um through that song. Uh like It's It's like a little friend, which
is just beautiful.
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for sharing that story. You know,
it's it's you've really enlightened Leon, myself,
inspired me to go back and think about writing some more music
now.
Yeah, do it.
Your story is is fantastic and we wish you all the best and thanks
for sharing with all of our listeners. Um, we'll put all of the
links you've mentioned today in in the in the show notes for people
to pick pick up. Uh, thank you so much, L, for the time you spent
with us. today and and and for sharing with our listeners on our
podcast and hopefully this is your year going forward coming up now
and uh and we really appreciate your time.
Uh thank you. Absolute pleasure.
Thanks.